As a former professor of English and current editor and writing coach, I find that there are some writers who simply cannot stop asking people for feedback until they reach a point of paralysis because they have so many disparate opinions about what they're written. I share any work-in-progress only with my spouse, who is an excellent editor as well as a writer too, and also with my former college writing mentor because we're in touch on a regular basis. Nobody else sees it until it's published. I trust their judgment, have found it very smart and incisive over the years, and neither one has ever been trying to score points by being clever at my expense. Their input has helped fuel my career.
This is the easiest route to getting good feedback in my opinion. If you have a trusted person who appreciates your style it makes the feedback much better.
That takes time for both the writer and the "feedbacker." My spouse learned not to offer suggestions about dialogue since I have a much better ear (speak several languages and I'm a singer).
This is the easiest route to getting good feedback in my opinion. If you have a trusted person who appreciates your style it makes feedback much better.
You won’t believe this but I’m at Oxford doing a creative writing course and today we were talking about feedback and what is helpful when giving it. So many of your points came up! I’m compiling a list of Substacks to share with everyone at the end of the week for guidance on how Substack can be a tool to help them develop the habit of writing and connecting to other writers/creators for support and feedback and this post couldn’t have been more timely!
Thank you for this essay, Remy. I agree with you in many ways. Feedback is both a gift and a test. That idea is so joyfully raw and enthusiastic that it can lose its spark and perish in the wrong hands. I believe ideas are wonderful companions; as you said, we should protect these encounters with others but also allow them to evolve and thrive.
There is constructive feedback that serves and enhances the idea, and there is also sometimes bitter feedback that can crush creative confidence. Hopefully, with time and experience, we can discern between the two and move towards the original intention with care.
At the end of the day, we are the ones leading the idea: we are in a co-pilot game.
Yes to all of this! And I think you as the creator have to develop the skill of knowing when you’re ready for feedback. Some people find it helpful in early stages, but for me I have to get to a point where I’m feeling open to it. And if I do it before then, I can be very easily derailed and then paralyzed.
I loved reading this, Remy! For me, it was very opportune. I have struggled with criticism all my life, and to my detriment. I wish I had received advice like this twenty plus years ago.
As for giving criticism, my rule is understand first, and never criticise unless you can offer a solution.
Great post Remy. I think you’re bang on about having that strong core vision for your film (or whatever creative work) before asking for feedback - specific notes on specific points are always helpful I think but not crushing or questioning the whole foundation of the piece.
personally i like all feedback and feel i can usually distinguish between constructive criticism, unhelpful criticism (which means well/comes from a good place) (both of which are valuable in their own way and to which i respond positively and with thanks) and thoughtless and or deliberately mean criticism which can be ignored or responded to with ironically effusive thanks (which they usually dont clock is ironic)
giving good feedback is not always given the thought the writer deserves and i have struggled sometimes and then chickened out where i just cant seem to say what I think without it risking being upsetting or demoralising. some people like it when you say "i dont think those adjectives quite work for what i think you're trying to do... i might be wrong but what do you think of this instead?"
other people glower in silence or feel demoralised... its a hard call isnt it... for me, i never think i know best ... i mean theres a ton of writers on here ive seen already who are much better writers than me ... so tell me what you think and take the gloves off! im a big boy!
i think here... so far i may have given one bit of feedback that didnt go down well... probably a personality thing there i think. most people seem to appreciate ive spent time to make a considered reply.
I feel I'm pretty great at taking feedback. Mostly I let people say whatever they want to say and don't try to defend myself, only answering questions that they actually ask, etc. I do actually find that most feedback is either people urging me to do more of what I want to do (sometimes you hold yourself back, even if unintentionally) or pointing out issues that I already know I have, which is useful because there's always some part of your brain that says, "Well maybe people won't notice or care" and then there's the reader pointing out that they do notice and do care.
The key thing however is that a lot of feedback is people trying to offer solutions rather than pointing out the problem. Some people giving feedback are REALLY GOOD at pointing out the problem without implying the solution they think they prefer, and I endeavor to be that type of person when I'm asked for feedback myself, but it's very challenging. So you have to learn how to hear the problem from people's proposed solutions, which takes experience and a lot of creative listening: "What I hear from that is this, is that what you mean?" etc.
I actually have a good, very recent example. I submitted my newest feature script to The Blacklist and got feedback on it. It's a werewolf movie about alcoholism, to contextualize it briefly, and it's a diptych structurally that takes place between two separate attacks.
In the sections where the person giving feedback listed its qualities and talked about its potential market etc, everything was spot on aligned with what I am trying to do with the script and offer to an audience. 100%. In the section where the reviewer discussed where it needs work, they said that the main character needed to take more control in the second half and should, paraphrase, "investigate the werewolf nature and try to learn its mechanics." That's not aligned at all with how the story works BUT I distinctly noticed myself, while writing the second half, that I was not letting the character go and DO STUFF about the shit happening to her a lot, and even though I kept banging out the script to complete the overall arc I needed to get down, in my head I kept thinking "But second draft this girl's gotta go out and do something about her situation."
So the feedback was right on the ticket in that sense. Regardless of the fact that the reviewer is wrong to tell me to add paranormal investigation to my script, that feedback came out of what the reviewer was correctly feeling, that my main character needs to be more active in the second half of the script. A feeling I had but somehow squelched in the process of just writing it, but now is clearly the center of how I need to update it for the next round.
My son is doing an internship with a writing organization this summer. They go through the whole process of writing, workshopping, selecting and publishing a magazine. I had a discussion with him about feedback and the fact that you can disregard what you want, and that not all feedback is applicable, good, or helpful. Right away he said, “Yeah, because they may not understand the context.” It’s hard to find someone to give great feedback that is meaningful sometimes.
This is a bit off-topic, but would you recommend film school after experiencing it? I took the Writing for Film & Television Program at Vancouver Film School right after high school, and it felt like such a waste of money (but not time), especially when I experienced what university has to offer several years later.
If you’re down, I’d love to collaborate on a piece about film school. The pros and cons that hopefully reach people before their marketing and sales team does (as was my case).
Sure, would love to collab. I think I would recommend it, yes, but with the caveat of really knowing what your goal is when you start. When I went to film school, I didn't have such goal for instance.
I always think of the line from Pride and Prejudice where the Lady Catherine DeBerg says "Of course if I did play the piano forte I would be an excellent player" or something like that. I always consider the source-not to put them down or up but to give me an even outlook that is neither good nor bad. After all karma is neither good nor bad-it is just karma and so are critics.
Excellent points Remy! I have had the luck to work collaboratively with great editors who helped my work better, and one pompous editor, who wanted to completely rewrite my piece, knowing next to nothing about my country’s history and culture (communist Hungary of the 80’s). I fought him (politely and gently), but in the final print of the piece in the magazine part of my title was omitted (which gave the whole piece its context!). I was so frustrated. But that is about the worst experience I had. Constructive feedback can make the piece of art better because as artists we tend to be a little too close, immersed in it to see some more obvious faults/ things that don’t work. But, you are right, we need to exercise care either way who we ask feedback for, for all the reasons you have beautifully listed here :) Merci pour la belle écriture, comme toujours!
'Feedback' has been a recurring theme in my life, so this really hits home.
I understand that it forms a crucial part of learning, but I've experienced the harsh, lingering realities when the process is not handled with skill. Whether as an observer or as the interpreter of an observation, I believe it's a relational process as already discussed above by Lev Raphael.
Thank you for this essay, Remy. It stirs up more perseverance.
In my mind, the Artist is the Art. In my mind a good Art Teacher would support what the Artist needs most. What do y9ou need? That is what a good teacher would ask.
A quiet place of uninterrupted time.
Some food and drink.
Supplies.
In my mind a good Teacher would write, then give refection on their own process, and the meaning of the text of their work. Same with other forms of Art. The Artist is the Art, teach them to expect, or how, to get what they need to create by giving them what they need, or what they think they need, to create a bit of themselves for us to see. I had an excellent Mentor, not so long ago. The wisest thing they ever wrote to me wa after reading what I had written was, "Keep going."
A lot of good advice with good insight, however, I would offer at least one caveat, and that is take the criticism offered and critique it in your own mind – before rejecting or accepting it. Consider the context in which it was offered. Is the reader saying that they don’t think it works, or are they saying that it doesn’t work for them. Two different things. Also, ask yourself how many people did not get your idea, your vision. It may be a good idea, a good vision, but if you left something out of the narrative (or put too much in) then maybe you didn’t quite reach the audience in the way you wanted to. Or maybe the critic is just being a complete jerk and can be completely ignored. One way or the other, though, once you’ve honestly critiqued the critique in your own mind, then you’ll almost certainly be better for it.
As a former professor of English and current editor and writing coach, I find that there are some writers who simply cannot stop asking people for feedback until they reach a point of paralysis because they have so many disparate opinions about what they're written. I share any work-in-progress only with my spouse, who is an excellent editor as well as a writer too, and also with my former college writing mentor because we're in touch on a regular basis. Nobody else sees it until it's published. I trust their judgment, have found it very smart and incisive over the years, and neither one has ever been trying to score points by being clever at my expense. Their input has helped fuel my career.
Another great point. Trust only the trustworthy to give feedback on your precious creations. :)
And I often give them something with a question about something specific like "Is the ending clear enough?" or "Is it funny?"
Totally. You have to really feel clear about what you're doing and where you need to be shored up for the feedback to land.
This is the easiest route to getting good feedback in my opinion. If you have a trusted person who appreciates your style it makes the feedback much better.
That takes time for both the writer and the "feedbacker." My spouse learned not to offer suggestions about dialogue since I have a much better ear (speak several languages and I'm a singer).
This is the easiest route to getting good feedback in my opinion. If you have a trusted person who appreciates your style it makes feedback much better.
You won’t believe this but I’m at Oxford doing a creative writing course and today we were talking about feedback and what is helpful when giving it. So many of your points came up! I’m compiling a list of Substacks to share with everyone at the end of the week for guidance on how Substack can be a tool to help them develop the habit of writing and connecting to other writers/creators for support and feedback and this post couldn’t have been more timely!
Good luck on the writing course :)
Thank you for this essay, Remy. I agree with you in many ways. Feedback is both a gift and a test. That idea is so joyfully raw and enthusiastic that it can lose its spark and perish in the wrong hands. I believe ideas are wonderful companions; as you said, we should protect these encounters with others but also allow them to evolve and thrive.
There is constructive feedback that serves and enhances the idea, and there is also sometimes bitter feedback that can crush creative confidence. Hopefully, with time and experience, we can discern between the two and move towards the original intention with care.
At the end of the day, we are the ones leading the idea: we are in a co-pilot game.
Yes. I agree!
Yes to all of this! And I think you as the creator have to develop the skill of knowing when you’re ready for feedback. Some people find it helpful in early stages, but for me I have to get to a point where I’m feeling open to it. And if I do it before then, I can be very easily derailed and then paralyzed.
Yes I’m definitely the same, I like having explored for a little while before letting more people in.
Yes, as Hamlet says, "the readiness is all."
Same here!
I loved reading this, Remy! For me, it was very opportune. I have struggled with criticism all my life, and to my detriment. I wish I had received advice like this twenty plus years ago.
As for giving criticism, my rule is understand first, and never criticise unless you can offer a solution.
Thank you Annette!
Great post Remy. I think you’re bang on about having that strong core vision for your film (or whatever creative work) before asking for feedback - specific notes on specific points are always helpful I think but not crushing or questioning the whole foundation of the piece.
🙌
hi remy
interesting thoughts!
personally i like all feedback and feel i can usually distinguish between constructive criticism, unhelpful criticism (which means well/comes from a good place) (both of which are valuable in their own way and to which i respond positively and with thanks) and thoughtless and or deliberately mean criticism which can be ignored or responded to with ironically effusive thanks (which they usually dont clock is ironic)
giving good feedback is not always given the thought the writer deserves and i have struggled sometimes and then chickened out where i just cant seem to say what I think without it risking being upsetting or demoralising. some people like it when you say "i dont think those adjectives quite work for what i think you're trying to do... i might be wrong but what do you think of this instead?"
other people glower in silence or feel demoralised... its a hard call isnt it... for me, i never think i know best ... i mean theres a ton of writers on here ive seen already who are much better writers than me ... so tell me what you think and take the gloves off! im a big boy!
i think here... so far i may have given one bit of feedback that didnt go down well... probably a personality thing there i think. most people seem to appreciate ive spent time to make a considered reply.
I feel I'm pretty great at taking feedback. Mostly I let people say whatever they want to say and don't try to defend myself, only answering questions that they actually ask, etc. I do actually find that most feedback is either people urging me to do more of what I want to do (sometimes you hold yourself back, even if unintentionally) or pointing out issues that I already know I have, which is useful because there's always some part of your brain that says, "Well maybe people won't notice or care" and then there's the reader pointing out that they do notice and do care.
The key thing however is that a lot of feedback is people trying to offer solutions rather than pointing out the problem. Some people giving feedback are REALLY GOOD at pointing out the problem without implying the solution they think they prefer, and I endeavor to be that type of person when I'm asked for feedback myself, but it's very challenging. So you have to learn how to hear the problem from people's proposed solutions, which takes experience and a lot of creative listening: "What I hear from that is this, is that what you mean?" etc.
I actually have a good, very recent example. I submitted my newest feature script to The Blacklist and got feedback on it. It's a werewolf movie about alcoholism, to contextualize it briefly, and it's a diptych structurally that takes place between two separate attacks.
In the sections where the person giving feedback listed its qualities and talked about its potential market etc, everything was spot on aligned with what I am trying to do with the script and offer to an audience. 100%. In the section where the reviewer discussed where it needs work, they said that the main character needed to take more control in the second half and should, paraphrase, "investigate the werewolf nature and try to learn its mechanics." That's not aligned at all with how the story works BUT I distinctly noticed myself, while writing the second half, that I was not letting the character go and DO STUFF about the shit happening to her a lot, and even though I kept banging out the script to complete the overall arc I needed to get down, in my head I kept thinking "But second draft this girl's gotta go out and do something about her situation."
So the feedback was right on the ticket in that sense. Regardless of the fact that the reviewer is wrong to tell me to add paranormal investigation to my script, that feedback came out of what the reviewer was correctly feeling, that my main character needs to be more active in the second half of the script. A feeling I had but somehow squelched in the process of just writing it, but now is clearly the center of how I need to update it for the next round.
I learned a lot from this reply--thank you! The way you qualified reasons why you are good at receiving feedback.
On another note: I also think you get consent when you say, "when I'm asked for feedback." WOW.
((I'm doing silent applause and enthusiasm because light bulbs went off here))
My son is doing an internship with a writing organization this summer. They go through the whole process of writing, workshopping, selecting and publishing a magazine. I had a discussion with him about feedback and the fact that you can disregard what you want, and that not all feedback is applicable, good, or helpful. Right away he said, “Yeah, because they may not understand the context.” It’s hard to find someone to give great feedback that is meaningful sometimes.
I love the 90/10 ratio. Trust your gut. Write. 🙏
This is a bit off-topic, but would you recommend film school after experiencing it? I took the Writing for Film & Television Program at Vancouver Film School right after high school, and it felt like such a waste of money (but not time), especially when I experienced what university has to offer several years later.
If you’re down, I’d love to collaborate on a piece about film school. The pros and cons that hopefully reach people before their marketing and sales team does (as was my case).
Sure, would love to collab. I think I would recommend it, yes, but with the caveat of really knowing what your goal is when you start. When I went to film school, I didn't have such goal for instance.
I always think of the line from Pride and Prejudice where the Lady Catherine DeBerg says "Of course if I did play the piano forte I would be an excellent player" or something like that. I always consider the source-not to put them down or up but to give me an even outlook that is neither good nor bad. After all karma is neither good nor bad-it is just karma and so are critics.
Excellent points Remy! I have had the luck to work collaboratively with great editors who helped my work better, and one pompous editor, who wanted to completely rewrite my piece, knowing next to nothing about my country’s history and culture (communist Hungary of the 80’s). I fought him (politely and gently), but in the final print of the piece in the magazine part of my title was omitted (which gave the whole piece its context!). I was so frustrated. But that is about the worst experience I had. Constructive feedback can make the piece of art better because as artists we tend to be a little too close, immersed in it to see some more obvious faults/ things that don’t work. But, you are right, we need to exercise care either way who we ask feedback for, for all the reasons you have beautifully listed here :) Merci pour la belle écriture, comme toujours!
Thanks Imola 🙌
'Feedback' has been a recurring theme in my life, so this really hits home.
I understand that it forms a crucial part of learning, but I've experienced the harsh, lingering realities when the process is not handled with skill. Whether as an observer or as the interpreter of an observation, I believe it's a relational process as already discussed above by Lev Raphael.
Thank you for this essay, Remy. It stirs up more perseverance.
In my mind, the Artist is the Art. In my mind a good Art Teacher would support what the Artist needs most. What do y9ou need? That is what a good teacher would ask.
A quiet place of uninterrupted time.
Some food and drink.
Supplies.
In my mind a good Teacher would write, then give refection on their own process, and the meaning of the text of their work. Same with other forms of Art. The Artist is the Art, teach them to expect, or how, to get what they need to create by giving them what they need, or what they think they need, to create a bit of themselves for us to see. I had an excellent Mentor, not so long ago. The wisest thing they ever wrote to me wa after reading what I had written was, "Keep going."
A lot of good advice with good insight, however, I would offer at least one caveat, and that is take the criticism offered and critique it in your own mind – before rejecting or accepting it. Consider the context in which it was offered. Is the reader saying that they don’t think it works, or are they saying that it doesn’t work for them. Two different things. Also, ask yourself how many people did not get your idea, your vision. It may be a good idea, a good vision, but if you left something out of the narrative (or put too much in) then maybe you didn’t quite reach the audience in the way you wanted to. Or maybe the critic is just being a complete jerk and can be completely ignored. One way or the other, though, once you’ve honestly critiqued the critique in your own mind, then you’ll almost certainly be better for it.
Good point, thanks Jeff!